小栗上野介の造船所 (東善寺)      勝海舟の海軍500年説
Kozukenosuke Oguri's shipyard (Tozenji Temple)   Kaisyu Katsu's "Navy needs 500 Years" Theory
勝海舟の海軍500年説
『海舟日記』の信憑性(しんぴょうせい)ゆらぐ
               

Kaisyu Katsu's "Navy Needs 500 Years" Theory
Credibility of "Kaishu Nikki (Kaishu Diary)" is at stake.

海軍500年説 

 勝海舟は『海舟日記』の中で次のように書いています。

「文久二年八月二十日、閣老以下が列座する将軍様の前で軍艦は数年で造れるが、海軍を運用する人材育成に(イギリスの例では300年かかっている。日本では)500年かかるから、まずそれを先にすべきと申し上げた」 (意訳:『勝海舟全集』18より)

勝海舟の「海軍500年説」といわれるもので、こういう言い方で遠回しに
小栗上野介の造船所建設提案に反対したことで知られています。

◇ Kaishu Katsu's "Navy needs 500 years" Theory

 In his "Kaishu Diary," Kaishu Katsu wrote the following:

On August 20, 1867 (Bunkyu 2), in the presence of the Shogun, with his ministers and others in attendance, I said that although warships could be built in a few years, it would take 500 years (in Japan, since it took 300 years in England) to train personnel to operate a navy, and that we should do that first. 
(Translation from "The Complete Works of Kaishu Katsu," 18)

This is known as Katsu Kaishu's "Navy needs 500 years" theory," in which he opposed Kozukenosuke Ogur's proposal to build a shipyard, in a roundabout way.


鉄の国への構造改革 

小栗上野介が造りたかったのは、船だけ造る造船所ではない。あらゆる工業製品を産み出す総合工場としての造船所で、それが日本の国の形を「木の国」から「鉄の国」へ構造改革することにつながると考えていました。そのモデルがワシントンの海軍造船所で、見学のあとアメリカ土産にたくさんのネジくぎを持ち帰って周囲に配ったのも、それが珍しいからではなく「
こういうものをどんどん造れる国にしたい」という意味でした。


◇ Structural Reforms to Become a "Country of Iron"

Kozukenosuke Oguri did not want to build a shipyard only to build ships. He wanted to build a shipyard as a comprehensive factory that would produce all kinds of industrial products, which he believed would lead to structural reform of Japan from a "country of wood" to a "country of iron." The model for this was the naval shipyard in Washington, D.C. After visiting the shipyard, he brought back many screw nails as souvenirs from the U.S. and gave them to people in Japan, not because they were rare, but because he wanted to make Japan a country that could produce more and more of those kinds of products.



▼「日本の近代工学のいっさいの源泉」(司馬遼太郎『街道を行くー三浦半島記』)となった横須賀造船所
Yokosuka Shipyard, "the source of all the Japan's modern engineering"
(Ryotaro Shiba wrote in his work, "Kaido-wo iku - Miura Peninsula Chronicles").



◇将軍の出座はなし

 ところで、勝海舟が海軍500年説で造船所建設に反対したという日の「文久二年八月二十日」について調べた横須賀市自然人文博物館学芸員の安池尋幸氏は、この日の記事は信頼しがたいと発表しています。 (『同 博物館報 No. 48 2004)
 たとえば、そういう場合とうぜん列座するはずの老中水野忠精の日記ではその日将軍家茂の出座はなく、閣老も召し出されていない。「その他の日は将軍の動静についてこまかに記している現任老中の日記に、その日閣老以下誰も召出された様子がない事実は、海舟日記自体が誤記である証拠」と述べている。


No appearance of the Shogun

By the way, Mr. Hiroyuki Yasuike, curator of the Yokosuka Museum of Nature and Humanities, who investigated "August 20, Bunkyu 2", the day when Kaishu Katsu opposed the construction of the shipyard with his theory of 500 years needed for the Navy, revealed that the article on this day is unreliable (The Museum Bulletin, No. 48, 2004).

For example, according to the diary of Tadakiyo Mizuno, a roju (chief senior councilor of the Shogunate), the shogun Iemochi Tokugawa was not present on that day, and no kakuro (senior advisors) were summoned either. Mr. Yasuike said, "The fact that no one, including the kakuro, was summoned to the Shogun's presence on that day in the diary of Mizuno, who wrote detailed accounts of the Shogun's movements on other days, is evidence that the description in 'Kaishu Diary' itself is an erroneous account."

◇日記の虚構

 日記の記事が誤記となると、書かれている「海軍500年説」は勝海舟の意見ではないのか、やはり彼の意見なのか、疑問になるところ。明治の元勲と呼ばれる人たちが残した日記が幕末維新当時の貴重な史料としてよく引用されますが、「いま自分は歴史の大事な仕事をしていて、自分の日記はのちに公開されるだろう」と自負し、誇張や自己主張、自己弁護を交えて書かれているものがある、といわれます。

 とかく演説が多い『海舟日記』にもそういう作為が施されているとしたら、じゅうぶん注意して読む必要があります。

                     2005(平成17)年10月

◇ Fiction in the diary

If the articles in the diary are erroneous, I wonder if “Navy needs 500 years” theory supposedly written by Kaishu Katsu is not his opinion, or is it still his opinion? Diaries left by those who are called the "Elder statesmen of the Meiji era" are often cited as valuable historical documents at the end of the Edo period and at the time of the Meiji Restoration. However, it is said that in some cases they wrote their diaries with exaggeration, self-assertion, and self-defense, taking pride in the fact that they were now engaged in important historical work and that their diaries would later be made public.  

If the "Kaishu Diary," which often contains boasts and exaggerations, is also subject to this kind of artifice, we need to read it with great caution.

                                           October 2005 or Heisei 17


勝海舟の虚言 

 多くの歴史書に引用される勝海舟『氷川清話』は高齢になってからの放言録で自慢話がちりばめられ、史実との食い違いがたくさんある。

たとえば、

The Falsehoods of Kaishu Katsu 

 Katsu Kaishu's "Hikawa-seiwa," which is quoted in many history books, is a record of his ramblings at an advanced age and is littered with boastful stories, and there are many discrepancies with the historical facts.

For example
,

◆「万延年間におれが咸臨丸に乗って、外国人の手は少しも借りないで、亜米利加へ行ったのは・・・」(同『氷川清話』・日本海軍の基礎) 

おれが・・・自分が咸臨丸の中心と思わせる言い方だが、咸臨丸の責任者は海軍奉行木村摂津守で、勝海舟は木村に頼んで加えてもらった。ところが艦長ではなく「教授方取扱」という船の操縦コーチ主任程度の役名しかもらえなかったので、不満だらけであった。
しかも結果として船酔いが激しくてほとんど泉質にこもり切り、サンフランシスコへ着くまでに甲板へ上がってきたのは3回くらいしかなかった。(ブルック『咸臨丸日記』)
◆"During the Man'en era, I went to the U.S. on board the Kanrin Maru without the slightest help from foreigners..." (The Foundations of the Japanese Navy, "Hikawa-seiwa"). 

"I went..." is an expression that sounds as if he was the central fiture of the Kamrin Maru, but the person in charge of the Kamrin Maru was Settsunokami Kimura, a naval magistrate, and Kaisyu Katsu asked Kimura to add him to the ship's crew. However, he was only given the title of "instructor," which was the chief of the ship's pilot coach, rather than captain, and he was very dissatisfied with this.
木村の談話:
「咸臨丸の艦長にするのでも(勝海舟が)どうか行きたいということですから、お前さんが行ってくれればというので、私から計ったのですが、なにぶん身分を上げる事もせず、まだあの頃は切迫していないものですから、そう格式を破るという具合にゆかないので、それが第一不平で、八つ当たりです。
 始終部屋にばかし引っ込んでるのですが、艦長のことですから、相談しないわけにも行かず、相談すると「どうでもしろ」という調子で、それからまた色々反対もされるので、実に困りました。はなはだしいのは、太平洋の真ん中で、おれはこれから帰るから、バッテーラ(ボート)を卸(おろ)してくれなどど、水夫に命じたくらいです。それで゙福沢の伝にあるように、ただ船に酔ったというのではない、つまり不平だったのです。」(土居良三『軍艦奉行木村攝津守』中公新書)

温厚な木村が談話の中で二度も「困った」と語るのは、本当に手を焼いたのだろう。

Kimura's story:
"When the idea of appointing Kaishu Katsu as the captain of the Kanrin Maru came up, Katsu said he wanted to go the U.S, so I arranged for him to go. However, since we had not raised his status as he wanted and it was not urgent at that time, we could not go so far as to break the formalities, and he flared up at other people for that."  
"He was always in his room, but since he was (a sort of) the captain of the ship, I couldn't help but ask him for advice. When I asked him for advice, he said, "Do whatever you want," and then he also objected to me in various ways, which really annoyed me. What was more serious was that, in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, he even ordered the sailors to unload a boat, saying, "I am going home now." So, as Fukuzawa's biography says, it was not just that he was seasick; in other words, he was full of complaints."

("Warship Magistrate, Settsunokami Kimura" by Ryozo Doi, Chukoh Shinsho)
(Note) Kaishu Katsu was not offcially appointed as the captain of the Kanrin Maru, but rather as an ambiguous position of an instructor.

The mild-mannered Kimura must have been really in over his head to speak of being "troubled" twice in the discourse.

外国人の手は少しも借りないで・・・咸臨丸に同乗していたブルック大尉以下11名の米人の手によって嵐の北太平洋を乗り切ることが出来た。そのとき勝海舟は船酔いで寝たきりだったから、これはまったくのハッタリ発言。
*"... without the slightest help from foreigners...": In fact, they were able to ride out the stormy North Pacific Ocean with the help of 11 Americans, including Captain John Mercer Brooke, who was on board the Kamrin Maru. Therefore, that is a totally bluff statement, since Kaishu Katsu was bedridden at the time due to seasickness.


◆「日本人が独りで軍艦に乗ってここへ来たのはこれが初めてだといって、アメリカの貴紳らもたいそうほめて・・・」(同『氷川清話』・咸臨丸で渡米

独りで・・・上記参照。他人(ここではアメリカの貴紳)の口を借りて(自分の責任を逃れて)ハッタリをそのまま流している。

◆「小栗や栗本などが仏蘭西へ制度視察のために派遣せられる時など・・・」(同『氷川清話』・向山黄村)
*仏蘭西へ…小栗はフランスへ行っていない。

◆「おれは機転をきかして一同を築地のホテルへ連れて来て、酒肴料を千両くれてやった」(同『氷川清話』・三国干渉くらい朝飯前)
*築地ホテル…は慶応三年八月着工〜四年八月完成だから、この話の慶応三年四,五月頃はまだ着工もしていない。

◆ "American gentlemen praised us highly, saying, 'This is the first time Japanese came here by themselves on a warship'..." ("Visit to the U.S." of "Hikawa Seiwa")

"by themselves": He borrowed words from others (in this case, American gentlemen) and bluffed his way out of his own responsibility.

◆ "When Oguri, Kurimoto and others were sent to France and the West to inspect their systems..." ("Koson Mukoyama" of "Hikawa Seiwa")

"Oguri": Kozukenosuke Oguri did not go to France.

◆ "I tactfully brought them to a hotel in Tsukiji and gave them 1,000 ryo for sake and snacks." ("Sangoku-kansho kurai Asameshi-mae" of "Hikawa Seiwa")

The construction of the Tsukiji Hotel began in August of 1867 or Keio 3 and was completed in August of the next year, so the construction had not even begun around April or May of Keio 3.


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横須賀明細一覧図を読む…図から読み取れる産業革命の地横須賀
横須賀造船所のレンガ
横須賀造船所の借款説
小栗の濡れ衣・四国・蝦夷を担保にした:幕末世情混乱の中の根無し草
森林保護育成の提唱:造船には多量の木材が必要だから・・・
技師長フランソワ・レオンス・ヴェルニー:横須賀市のページ(リンク)
Related Pages
Yokosuka shipyard, "House for sale with a storehouse"
Reading the "Detailed Drawing of Yokosuka": We can read from the drawing that Yokosuka was the place of the Industrial Revolution in Japan.
The bricks of the Yokosuka Shipyard
The theory that the Yokosuka ironworks were built with borrowed money
Falsely accued Oguri - he used Shikoku and Ezo as collateral:A baseless theory in the turmoil of the late Edo period
Advocacy of forest protection and cultivation: Shipbuilding requires a lot of wood...
Chief Engineer Francois-Leonce Verney: Yokosuka City Website (link)